Outboard adivce please

[StevensMan]

I'm thinking about getting outboard for my 2355. I need it for 2 things - limp home if my main engine quits and for occasional fishing. I think want my motor to be:
1. Quiet
2. Not heavy
3. Able to push 2355 on flat water

Other things are less important for me. I’d strongly prefer 4 stroke, do not care much about electrical start or alternator. I think I need to go with 10HP long shaft.

What do you guys think about buying new vs. used? I can not find any 10hp 4 stroke long shaft for less then $800 and it would be 15 years old motor. New one is around $1700.
So what motor would you buy? Is 10hp enough? Maybe it is better to get older 2 stroke – they could be found cheaper… What do you think about 9.8hp Nissan – any experience with this model? Anything else I should consider when searching for outboard?

Thanks,
Anton

[Randygh]

I have a 3.5 Nissan for my inflatable. It is a great little 2-cycle motor, light and easy starting. (Bought it on ebay for a great deal). It's too small to be a kicker for my boat. My kicker is an old '68 Merc, 9.9 that runs like a top, but is quite heavy.

I agree with you that a 10 hp long shaft would be a good kicker motor. Four-cycles are alittle heavier and you need to be aware of how you position the engine if you lay it on its side. Two cycles can be layed without regard to position, but you will need to have mixed 2-stroke oil/gas in your fuel can. I don't know if smaller 2-cycles have automatic oilers.

Others on this board will have good ideas.

[StevensMan]

You say 3.5 is too small to be a kicker on you boat. Just out of curiosity, let's say you try to push you boat with 3.5 - what happens? I assume it would move ahead on glass-like water, how fast?
Or let's say I got 5hp and try to use it as kicker. I assume it would puch 2355 on calm water with no current or wind to about 3-4mph or maybe even faster. I had 5hp on 26' sailboat - did not have any problem but sailboat hull goes throught the water much easier.

Appreciate any thoughts.

[heymagic]

We had a 32 Carver sedan, it and about 15 other boats were untied one night at Dockton...funny prank :evil: ....our boat ended up on the beach. Bow in, props were just dragging. I dropped our 9 ft Livingston and 3.3 merc and just pulled , and pulled....the Carver finally came off the beach and I towed her backwards for quite a ways 'til we were sure it was safe to put in gear.

A 3.3 would not be my first choice though. You should look for a long shaft 6 hp minimum.

[StevensMan]

3.3 hp to pull 32' from the beach :shock: What model it was? :lol:

[SomeSailor]

Big difference between you sailboat and 2355 in weight, hull shape and most importantly sail area. A 3HP would be too small. I had a 2.5 on my dink and against a current, it would barely make headway. :)

Most have 9.9 longshafts.

[sunnydude2]

There is a nice 96 merc long shaft 9.9 on craigslist today for $750.

[Go Aweigh2452]

My 9.9 pushes my 2452 at 6-7 knots... Used it once during small craft in Georgia straits when my steering pulley threw the belt... yes, 9.9 worked great!

[sunnydude2]

I picked up an older johnson 9.9 last spring. It still sits on side of my house waiting for me to clean the carb and get running good. The 9.9 was recommended for my 2850.

[Kuredu]

We had a 2hp 2 troke on our 2850CB and in dead calm water ir would move us around at 3mph. Problem was that even a slight wind would cause problems and a 3mph current is not unusual around the PNW. So, essentially, it would not work.

I agree you need a 9.9. We have a new "lightweight" 84# 9.9 Merc 4 stroke. As said above, it can only store in one position or you drain the oil out the sump and 84# is manageable but you don't want to lift that on and off the whole time, but both those issue would be solved with the correct mounting bracket so you could leave it on semi-permanently. I know the 9.9 would push your boat nicely, even for an emergency motor.

[Randygh]

Anton--If you can get a 9.9 Merc on Craigslist for $750.00, it certainly is worth looking at. That's a good price unless there is something wrong with it. I agree with others on this board that a 9.9 is hard to beat.

My 3.5 Nissan will push my boat for trolling on calm water, but it is much too small for a "get home" motor.

[StevensMan]

Thank you guys for your advices. Of cource I do not want to go with 3.5, I just want to see how small is too small.

I do not see 96 merc for $750 there, I see couple others that may be OK deals:

http://seattle.craigslist.org/boa/138251809.html 8hp 4 stroke $800
http://seattle.craigslist.org/boa/138656809.html 6hp $250

I especially like the second one, good price, I may re-sell it if it does not work for my boat. Do you think it would be to small for 2355? I understand that 10hp would be even better but I see that many people with 28' boats happy with 10hp so I think 23' and 6hp should be enough for many situations except for bad weather?

Also, are 2 stroke motors generally louder then 4 strokes?

Thanks,
Anton

[sunnydude2]

Here it is: http://seattle.craigslist.org/boa/138526484.html

[StevensMan]

Here it is: http://seattle.craigslist.org/boa/138526484.html

Oh, thanks, I must be blind :( I searched for "outboard" - this ad does not have this keyword.

I'll check it out. Looks like perfect motor for me, except that it is 2 stroke...

[Randygh]

That's a nice looking 9.9 Merc!!

[Go Aweigh2452]

I'll check it out. Looks like perfect motor for me, except that it is 2 stroke...

2 storke normally means more power over the same size 4 stroke. bad news... you may have to premix your oil fuel unless it is self mixing... that'd be a good question to ask...

[SomeSailor]

Worse bews... they're horible polluters and have a very limited future on the water... especially freshwater lakes that double as water supplies or fish spawns.

Two-cycles produce more power at a given RPM, but it's not free. They're very inefficient, loud, and have terrible emmissions. But they are cheap :)

[Tedster]

Not to mention they are a lot lighter! :D

[StevensMan]

Yes, 2 strokes are lighter and cheaper, that's why I think I'll go with it. Unfotunately 6HP for $250 is gone, so I'll check out this 9.9 merc for $750. Hopefully 2 stoke will be allowed in our area for some time.
What would you check on outboard? Obviously start, run, idle, in/out of gear, I'll check compression, can not really sure what else - the motor I'm looking at does not have alternator or electic start.
Just out of curiosity, does anyone knows how fuel efficiency differs between 2 and 4 stoke technology? It is save to assume that 4 stokes are more efficient, but by how much? I would guess it should be around 30%, does anyone knows real numbers?

[sabadd]

We took out the Trophy on Saturday and tried the 6.5 Evinrude 2 stroke. It pushed it slowwww. Could not keep it on course at all, wind was blowing a bit and we were going against the current trolling the ship wreck.
I am going for 9.9 now. If you want I will sell mine runs great.

Steve

[Tedster]

Are you really worried about the fuel savings of a kicker that has to be less than $20 a year if that much?! :shock:

[SomeSailor]

Fuel efficiency can also be seen in in terms other than just $$l. 2-stroke motors discharge ALL of their lubricating oil over the side. At a 50:1 it doesn't sound like much, but pouring a shot glass of 30W into the Sound everytime you run through a gallon of fuel, isn't real responsible either.

4-Cycles are eventually gonna replace 2-Cycles worldwide, but for now they are certainly less expensive.

[StevensMan]

Sabadd,
Just curious, what size is your Trohpy?
Tedster, I'm not worried that much about fuel savings, I'm more curious about how things work.
SomeSailor, I do not think all 2 cycle oil is discharged. As I understand the 2 cycle oil/gas mixture used to lubricate and later burned. Of cource it will never burn that clean as pure gasoline but I hope some oil will be burned anyhow. I may be wrong, I have very limited experience with 2 cycle motors.

[SomeSailor]

Anton; 2-cylces are terrible for emmissions. The unburned oil is the only oil that lubricates the upper end of the motor, Also, by the very nature of their design, they inefficiently burn the fuel oil mixture. As much as 30% of all the fuel fed to a 2-cycle motor (carb'd) is discharged as unburned hydrocarbons. Fuel injected 2 strokes are markedly better... but aren't the $250 motor you'll find on Craig's List. Many states and countries have talked about or already placed bans in place.

Here's a quote for ya:


Each year, marine 2-stroke motors spill 15 times more oil and fuel into waterways than did the Exxon Valdez.

and a link or two:

http://www.hikersforcleanair.org/papers/2cycle.html

[heymagic]

I can't remember where..but one of the lakes , maybe Nevada??, that banned 2 strokes checked the water after a year and no change. 2 strokes will be around for many years, improvements are ongoing. Much more damage is done by lawn fertilizer and industrial discharge than little 2 strokes.

[StevensMan]

Mike,
I understand what you are saying. Carburated 2 cycle pollutes a lot. I think link you sent tries to manipulate statictic to make it very dramatic, I do not have any data on this subject, research on Internet only finds information like this where people claim that "One hour on a typical snowmobile emits more air pollution than driving a modern car for a year" - interesting to see, "typical snowmobile" vs. "modern car" :? This informaion does not look very credible to me, especially when they say "In Minnesota, it is estimated that 14% of benzene emissions from mobile sources come from off-road 2-cycle engines, while 10% comes from off-road 4-cycle engines." - it does not play well, especially when they do not say what is ratio between offroad 2 and 4 cycles in Minnesota. And 24% of all Minnesota's emmission comes from off-road engines? - give me a break.
There are also other sites where people claim that 2 cycles are way better for boating applicaitons, faster, more efficient, etc. Both sides sound very biased.
I tried to find research information EPA site but there is just too much stuff, do not have time to go through this.
So I think reality is: 2 cycles are dirtier, cheaper, ligher and less fuel efficient (for 10HP motors). I still think it is OK to go with such motor as a spare for occasional get home scenario. I also will feel bad when I use it for trolling (seriously) but still most likely will go with 2 stroke.

[SomeSailor]

Not trying to convince you otherwise...

I have 2 two-stroke outboards here. Both are 60's vintage (100HP and 16HP). I plan to use them myself, and since that's what I've got... I'm OK with it.

I do believe the emmisions on two-cycles is much higher though and even though california gets the butt of all the jokes for their environmental efforts, we are all better off for it. If you'd seen LA 20-25 years ago, compared to now... you'd see they're on the right track.

But... just because we have an investment in an older existing technology, doesn't mean there's not a better way.

Here's a link to the EPA Impact study that states that "Up to 25-30 percent of the fuel consumed by such engines can exit the cylinder unburned."

EPA Regulatory Impact Analysis (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/marine/marnfria.pdf)

Take the time to read through it. I think you'll appreciate the real impact. [/url]

[Fred P]

Lets see do I have it right? It is not ok to fish for four hours with a 10 hp 2 stroke. Which may burn five gallons of gas and one pint of oil. It is ok to run a big block V8 at 3600 rps+ for four hours, pulling the kids around the bay, at 15 gallons per hour. That would be 60 gallons of gas and maybe a quart or two of oil. Those little two storks are bad, but since big V8s are four strokes, they are good for the environment. Every drop of fuel or oil that we burn in a boat goes in to the water. It may no longer be in the same form as gas or oil but it is still going into the water. There is some of the emission that is in a gases form but it is for the most part it is heaver than air. So where is it going to end up. Lets face it we all pollute and when folks start pointing finger they sometime find them selves standing in front of a mirror.

Fred P..................

[TollyWally]

LOL,
What Fred said!

[SomeSailor]

Lets see do I have it right? It is not ok to fish for four hours with a 10 hp 2 stroke. Which may burn five gallons of gas and one pint of oil. It is ok to run a big block V8 at 3600 rps+ for four hours, pulling the kids around the bay, at 15 gallons per hour.

Apples and Oranges Fred. What about comparing the guy with the 100HP 2 stroke running at 15GPH all day? :) All they're saying is that 2-cycles are MUCH worse polluters. The wasted fuel doesn't come out as carbon monoxide and cause problems. The problem is the unburned fuel and oil that escapes a 2-cycle motor through the exhaust port during the compression stroke. There is no way around this with a carb'd 2-stroke.

Anton asked for actual proof... and there is the paper that the EPA published in 1997.

Read through it if you get the chance. It's interesting is all I was getting at.

[StevensMan]

SS,

Thanks for finding the document, interesting read. Honestly I just glanced through, it has the data I was looking for.

There is an interesting table on page 19 comparing emission from small marine outboards 2 vs 4 stroke. It looks like both types emit the same amount of CO, 4 strokes are worse in NOx range and 2 strokes are as much as 10 times worse in emitting hydrocarbons (unburned fuel). This is sad, I'm not an environmentalist but it seems to me that gasoline fraction of unburned fuel is not that harmfull, it will evaporise while oil stays in the water and this is bad. So it looks like small 2 cycle puts more gasoline/oil in the water compare to big V8 at the same period of time :roll:
This would be another reason for me to look at 4 cycles. I'm not advocating for anything nor ask anyone to give up their 2 cycles. I also may end up with using 2 cycle myself. But at this point I'll be willing to pay a little bit more (in weight, year of motor, HP) for little bit cleaner techlonogy. Not to mention that I do not like mix oil with gasoline all the time :)

[SomeSailor]

Anton;

That was my premise on this as well. I'm certainly no environmental activist, but I can see where the consumption of the fuel by-products in our water supplies and the cancer causing agents into the air and soil is a bad thing.

I can't afford a nice new 4 stroke, but if money weren't the object, I can see how the 4 strokes are a more responsible answer.

2-Cycle oil is really just 30W oil (matter of fact that's what my old Envinrude manual recommends) so pouring sevearl ounces over the side with every gallon burned... adds up and I can see the problem.

[Randygh]

What's the difference between 2-cycle oil for water cooled or air cooled 2 strokes? I know my chainsaw recommends to use a chain saw type of 2 stroke oil.

[SomeSailor]

Dunno Randy. Never really understood why some ran on 100:1 and others at 50:1 either. Pretty random numbers. Wouldn't 85:1 sound more precise?

I was shocked when reading the original owners manual of this Envinrude 100HP and it stated to use any quality SAE-30W oil if Johnson 2-cycle oil was not readily available. So much for special ingredients huh? :)

[heymagic]

2 cycle oil stays emulsified better than motor oil, also formulated to smoke less and carbon less. 2 strokes live way longer with todays blended oils than the old stuff.

As for the pollution...the good old boys at Bremerton Naval Shipyard spill more oil every year in PS than all the 2 strokes ever ran in the history of Puget Sound boating...never mind the waste spillage from Seattle , Tacoma, Olympia. How about all that unburned diesel on the old Ford Lehmans...or the newer Cummins. Or all the old oil leaking inboards that just pump it overboard.

The small 2 strokes are so superior to their 4 stroke counterparts it isn't even funny. If someone is considering how much power they get for the weight for a dinghy or get home power it's no contest. My 3.3 Merc idles smoother, quieter, way lighter and has more grunt than the 4 hp Yamaha I sold at 1/2 price to get rid of...it had 15 minutes on it.

Move a 9.9 4 stroke from the swim step to the dinghy....better yet get the wifey to do it. Ain't gonna happen. There is a place for 4 stroke motors, not under 25 hp, not portable. 25 hp and up they are fine, although the new big 2 strokes are getting the emissions down, check out the new mazda RX-8....

If yer man enough to toss around a 9.9 2 stroke then get a 15 hp 2 stroke...same weight, same motor but much better for a kicker.

4 strokes have to be stored in only a couple positions, can't just toss them on their side like a 2 stroke .

Gene (celebrating 50 some years of political incorrectness) :lol:

[StevensMan]

Gene,
I'm not in disagreement with you, 2 strokes have a lot of advantages. At the same time Bremerton NS or anyone else polluting do not make me feel better about my motor spitting out unburned oil. I'm not saying that others should switch or whatever, I'm just speaking for myself, I do not care much about what others do, especially when as you noticed their share of pollution is very small comparing to "big guys". Also I have to say that most places in America is still very clean despite huge industrial pressure and I hate to add my share to making it dirty, I've seen dirty places and I did not like it a bit.
I did some research, it looks like typical weight for 9.9hp 2 sroke is around 80lbs. 9.9hp 4 stroke is 100+ lb. - quite a difference but nothing really dramatic. There are also pre-2000 Honda 10HP 4 stroke which are about 80lb but it looks like they in fact have only 8HP at the prop - maybe enough for my application. So now I consider both 10HP honda or 10HP 2 stroke, both have advantages in my eyes.
There is good and rather light Johnson 15hp 2 stroke out there but I do not think I need that much for my boat. Of cource I would concider it if I can find one for good price.

Another question for all people with 4 stroke main and 2 stroke kicker - how do you mix fuel? Do you always have portable tank with pre-mixed fuel or have it clean and add oil or have it empty and get fuel from main tank and mix if needed or something else? I do not think it is good idea to keep portable tank in engine compartment, sounds kind of dangerous for me, I do not know any easy way to fill portable tank from main tank. Please share your experience, what do you do?

Oh, forgot to add - 4 strokes can be stored only vertical or on one side, 2 strokes: vertical, on either side, upside down. I did not see any motor stored upside down and always storing motor on the same side does not look like a big deal to me. 8) - I think I can live with this limitation. maybe I just miss some special advantage of being able to toss motor on any side :lol:

Anton

[heymagic]

80 lbs going over transom, onto swimstep, into dinghy and then onto dinghy is a huge weight, the extra 20 lbs of a 4 stroke feels like 50lbs more. If the motor always stays on dinghy or never on dinghy then not so important. I've seen 28 Bays with 10 hp Hondas mounted on the swimstep and they list terribly to that side.

Storage...huge issue on smaller boats. The 2 stoke can be stuffed into many transom seats (2855) or in the side cubby on older 2850 or beside the main engine on many boats. OB theft is a big problem so out of sight is the best answer.

I carry 1 gallon in a new can (dosen't leak) pre-mixed, and the motor is full. We go through about 2 gallons a year, re-fill at fuel dock. Fuel can always be carried on swimstep or bridge. Poly cans don't like the sun much though. Bigger OBs may use a remote tank which is a little tougher to store.

Walk the docks at the marina and see if you can "borrow" an outboard. Try the weight and mounting it. Think about how to do this if the boat is drifting and the water is rough. When the 4 strokes got pretty popular a few years ago, we bought the 4 hp Yammy, what a disappointment. Heavy, noisy, rough idle , thankfully it was the Admiral's idea ;) . Of course we went to WM , on vacation, and bought the 3.3 Merc. left the Yammy in the car fro 2 weeks...I then noticed a bunch of small 4 strokes for sale in the papers...weight was always the issue. Seems to have tapered off now, but I haven't been looking either.

The pollution thing though...my point is ..it is so small that to endanger one's back over it is not worth it. By all means be enviro-aware. Keep the boat tuned up, keep the bilge clean, don't spill fuel, don't toss plastic, don't paint over water and so on. Really think over the little OB options though.

[Tedster]

Gene, you speak of truth and experience! I have a two stroke 8hp that is too heavy to move from boat to dinghy, imagine more! :shock:

[SomeSailor]

Gene, you speak of truth and experience! I have a two stroke 8hp that is too heavy to move from boat to dinghy, imagine more! :shock:

Yeah... but yer old :)

Anton is a strappin' youngster :D

[Tedster]

Old and very wise! :mrgreen:

[Randygh]

I keep my 9.9's mixed fuel in the Merc metal can on my swimstep. I put a small piece of carpet under the can and strap it down with a couple stout bungies. (Looks alittle white-trashie, but it works for me.) I use the carpet so the can doesn't scratch the teak. Since I trailer my boat, I remove the can and wet carpet when stored.

When I plan on cruising the Sound, I remove the kicker and mount my 3.5 Nissan on the kicker bracket and my inflatable on the swimstep. The 3.5 is very light and I don't have any problem moving it from the bracket to the inflatable, but I always have a safety tether tied between the boat and the motor when moving it to-from the inflatable. Since the Nissan has a built in tank, I carry a 2 1/2 plastic fuel container on the swimstep. Excluding the main fuel tank, I never carry fuel in the bilge.

[beyond kelp]

We have a 9.9 2 stroke merc and are suprised how quiet it is. It is the maximum weight I would tolerate for my use. I would love the four stroke, but my torn rotator cuffs and ripped bicep tendon make the rigors of installing the motor(without dropping it) a real hassle. I dropped a merc 9.9 at port of everett in the water when the cowl came off and it was not good :cry: We have a 10' 3" rigid zodiac. Our fuel tank is the one from West Marine that fits between the tubes at the bow. It is awesome! It puts the weight forward for easy planing and keeps it away from the tiller where the other tanks get in the way. I am able to get my son up for tube rides and get him outside the wake for a pretty decent crack the whip ride. We use the tube upside down when we snorkel to tote our stuff (oysters clams crabs etc.). Believe it or not, the 9.9s and the 15 horse motors share the same displacement, bore and stroke, just the carb is different and the exhaust tuner between the two. Im not saying to do this, but if your dinghy was only rated for a 9.9, change the carbs and tuner and bingo, youve got a 15 horse camoflaged as a 9.9. I would never do that as soon as I get the chance though ;)

[StevensMan]

Gene and everyone,

Thanks, great info, that is first hand experience I want to hear.
I do not plan to move OB from swimstep to dinghy, dinghy I use can take something like 3HP and it seems to be too small to be useful at swimstep. I park boat on trailer at home so theft is a little bit less of a concern to me, if I'm going to remove OB I better store it somewhere else, not on boat. I would love to be able to store OB somewhere on the boat though, I do not want this thing hanging from the swimstep all the time so I'll check if there is enough space to store it beside main engine, do not think it will really work on 2355 and 10hp outboard but I'll try.

Again, very useful information, really helps me to make informed decision. I'm going to look at 1996 10hp 2 cycle merc and buy it if it runs well.

Anton

[heymagic]

Just so ya know..Merc and Nissan are built by Tohatsu, an incredibly good little motor.

[beyond kelp]

Anybody have carb and tuner for a 03 15 horse merc? I will trade for 9.9 ones. Or purchase outright. :)

[StevensMan]

So now I'm proud owner of 1996 9.9 2 cycle LS Mercury. It is quiet, shifts and idles smooth, 120psi in both cylinders.
I’m looking for 15hp carb and tuner too. What is tuner, BTW? I assume I need it but have no idea what is it.

[Randygh]

Congrats Anton--You'll get many years of dependable service from you 9.9. I have no idea how many hours my '68 model has on it, but it runs like new.

One thing I always do after I run my 9.9 in saltwater is to wash off the dried salt and flush the cooling system. I elevate a 5 gallon bucket of fresh water high enough that the intake water port is well covered. The cooling system intake port is just above the prop. Start the engine in neutral and run the engine for several minutes. I make sure the pee water from the cooling jacket is flowing well and warm. Also, be sure to grease the zirk (grease fitting where the engine pivots on the mounting bracket) twice yearly. I use a water resistant trailer wheel bearing grease. Good luck and if you have questions, be sure to ask. We all learn from one another. :D

[Tedster]

Oh no the world has another polluter in the sound and aera lakes! Just kidding, glad you got it done, now go have fun! :lol: