Trailer Disc brakes

[Numbknots]

A couple of years ago I took a 1999 Escort tandam trailer that was hardly used, never maintained and removed the drum brakes and replaced them with the highly touted "stainless Rotor", Disc brakes kit that was manufactured by Tie-Down engineering. I have dunked the trailer in Salt water probably 10-15 times over the past 3 years, each time I washed down all I could see with fresh water when I returned from the trip.

Long story (as short as possible), after not using the boat/trailer for about a year, (stored inside) I got it out, cleaned up the boat, flushed/ran the O/B's and washed/waxed the boat, towed the trailer around the neighborhood and all seemed well. At 4:30am on Friday I took off for Newport Oregon for a day of Diving. I drove about 20 miles to West Marine/Jantzen Beach and with my IR thermometer I checked the temps at each hub. Each was about 180-200 degrees (pretty hot) but I surmised that they would likely free up and cool down as I ran south on I-5. (not to be)

About 1 mile North of Woodburn, I glanced in my R/v mirror to see (all4) axles on fire!!! I quickly pulled off the freeway and along with my passenger leaped to put out the fire. I reached in the rear seat for (what I thought was the location of my Dry Chemical Fire extinguisher (not) Seems I must have removed it?? So I then ran to the boat, leaped throught the engine well to the cuddy and grabbed the fire extinguisher. I tossed it to my helper who shot it at two of the axles as I grabbed a half dozen water bottles and jumped to the other side, we fortunately got the fire out before the Gel coat was set ablaze. By that time a Woodburn Fire truck arrived to help (not needed).

We spent the next 4 hours in a Walmart parking lot removing each wheel and hub and checking the bearing (new rear seal located at Napa) and then remove the totally destroyed calipers tied up the already burnt in to brake lines and came home! (Not before going into Walmart and purchasing a 5lb Dry Chemical Fire Extinguisher) two pounder was not adequate for this near tragedy.

What to do now???? I invested nearly $800 in what I thought was the way to go. Bad brand, wrong maintenance, what gives?

The one thing I know is that Disc Brakes have no return springs so they tend to lay against the rotors (should be no pressure on the pads)
Drum brakes have return springs so if they fail they tend to fail (open)

Drum brakes are hard to rid of salt crystals, versus disc components that are mostly exposed.

Anyone out there with experience in this??

Thanks,

Tim

[Fred P]

Hi Tim,

That is a sad story. I have been thinking that disks would be the way to go. It seems like the drums turn to rust buckets when you are not looking. Now I know that disks can be fire starters. I wonder if you could have just pried the pads away from the roter a time or two to free them up after they had set.

Fred..................

[SomeSailor]

WOW... wonder what started it? Thinking maybe the pucks were frozen out?

[heymagic]

Disc brakes always drag a little, the square cut rubber seal in the caliper is all that actually drags the puck back in. Brake fluid is hygro-scopic (?) it attracts moisture. The pistons likely got a little moisture under the seals and corroded or more likely the master cylinder may have a problem and kept the calipers applied.

[Numbknots]

Gene,

I also installed a "new" for disc brakes Atco surge receiver with a backup lockout solenoid. I backed the trailer up a hill a couple times to work on the boat and all seemed fine? In hind site I wonder if I guy could use Dot 5 (I think it is silicone based) hydraulic fluid instead of Dot 3?

I remember reading on the internet (forum) about disc brakes from Tie-down being prone to sieze? I was hoping "not me". (wrong)

How does one assure that there is not excess pressure on the rotors with the weight on the wheels?

With as many trailer boats out there being dunked in Salt water, there must be a pretty good record of problems/solutions/experience out there?

Tim

[Go Aweigh2452]

Tim, you can and should use DOT 5 in your brake lines. Just make sure you blow out the lines as much as possible before filling with the silicon. You are right about the silicon not absorbing water like DOT 3 or 4. Always made me wonder why trailer manufacturers would not spend the extra $2 or less to use silicon instead of DOT 3/4...

[SomeSailor]

Or sell a stainless rotor brake system (my last trailer) ... with cheap steel lines running everywhere... :?

Bob replaced his all with stainless last year. Turned out verey well. Maybe he can share the numbers and you could upgrade those while you're there?

[heymagic]

Silicon brake fluid has some advantages but it doesn't work well when hot. For flat towing it's ok, for lot's of hilly towing not so good. Dot 4 is my personal choice but it needs changed every year.

If the coupler were set a little tight on the push rod then the compensating port gets covered up. The fluid won't flow back into the master cylinder reservoir. When the pads heat up and the fluid expands it makes more pressure in the lines..which makes more heat, then more pressure and then you're poked.

[Go Aweigh2452]

Dot 4 is my personal choice but it needs changed every year.


DOT 5 does not need to be changed... ever. It does still require to be bled once in a while depending on your wheel and master cylinder condition. They will wear out before the DOT 5.

[Numbknots]

I was told that the flash rate was much higher (basically fireproof wiuth dot 5 (any truth to that?)

Ok, now the critical question, WHAT MANUFACTURE OF BRAKE ROTOR/CALIPER/LINES SHOULD I PURCHASE TO REPLACE THE ONES I DESTROYED??

Gene, your comment was very interesting and may be the exact reason for the fire??? I know that I bled the air out of the lines and made sure that there was not very much movement of the surge receiver before pressure began to be applied to the brakes. I also was thinking "I really probably don't need brakes on both axles with this boat?

Being that the unit sat for quite some time, and the reading with the IR thermometer were about 100 degrees higher then my truck rotors after 20 miles of travel that the brake flluid did infact expand (possibly considerably) causing there to be actually -0- clearance in the hitch/master/cylinder plunger/caliper piston/pad/rotor?? This would cause considerable friction with even the slightest de-acceleration of the tow vehicle? All that being said, what should I do about replacement??

Tim

[Numbknots]

Additional thought,

one thing about Electric/hydraulic brakes (like I have on my utility trailers is that they can be monitored very easily and adjusted for load and conditions from inside the cab (at the controller)???

I was told that they were illegal (or soon would be in many states and not a good option (obviously for submersion in water??)

Comments from the gallery of knowledge please???

Tim

[Numbknots]

I am getting more "humbled" all the time.

I dug into my archives of articles that I stored when I retrofitted the Escort trailer to disc brakes and found this article "WARNING".

Brake Coupler Trailer Parking Warning !!

When parking a trailer EQUIPPED with HYDRAULIC SURGE BRAKES it is important to be sure that the BRAKE COUPLER is pulled back forward to the fully telescoped [ TOWING ] position prior to final disconnecting of the trailer from the tow vehicle.

[ 1 ] Any HYDRAULIC BRAKE COUPLER that has a cast iron master cylinder, and is left with the brake coupler partially, or fully compressed [ as it would be when backing up ], will have part of the interior of the cast iron master cylinder wall exposed to the atmosphere.

Many times this will result in corrosion of the exposed cast iron cylinder wall, and will result in the fact that the piston in the master cylinder will not extend back to it's normal towing position the next time the trailer is towed.

This will result in hydraulic pressure being maintained on the trailer brakes, while towing, and will probably result in damage to the trailer braking system. This could result in a catastrophic accident !!

This phenomenon does not normally occur in brake couplers with COMPOSITE or ALUMINUM master cylinders, however it is a good policy to be sure that the brake coupler is fully extended to the towing position prior to disconnecting the trailer from the tow vehicle.

[ 2 ] A second reason to be sure that the brake coupler is fully extended to the towing position is that if hydraulic pressure is left on the trailer brakes while parked, the brakes shoes of a drum brake system, or the brake pads of a disc brake system will be maintained in FULL contact with the brake drum, or rotor. Many times this will result in the bonding [ sticking ] of the shoes or pads to the co-ordinate braking surface.

This will often result in a trailer that has the brakes locked up when the tow vehicle is attached. Sometimes jerking the trailer forwards, and backwards is enough to break the corrosion bond that has developed however sometimes the brakes must be disassembled to relieve the problem.

[ 3 ] SAFETY FIRST --- BE SURE THE BRAKE COUPLER IS FULLY EXTENDED BEFORE DISCONNECTING FROM THE TOW VEHICLE.

THIS MESSAGE IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY CHAMPION TRAILERS

AT CHAMPION TRAILERS WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR TRAILERING SAFETY

Could it be that both could have happened to my newly installed system??

(1) I am not sure that when I uncoupled the hitch that it was fully extended (relieving pressure from the actuator? (the garage floor is steeply sloped, making un coupling a little tedious?

2) I am not sure that there was not some sticking of the pads when I began towing as the 1 ton dodge with the newly "reprogrammed fuel controller" has a lot of towing torque.

There are a lot more articles on brakes at http://www.championtrailers.com/techsup.html#techretro

Sure wish I could find the info I saw a couple of years ago about "sticking calipers" and rapid wearing of "Tie-down Engineerings" brake components??

Tim

[heymagic]

DOT 5 is not everlasting nor a substitute for proper maintainance. We found DOT 5 to develope spongy pedals in the race cars. In a total new system it is a viable alternative. In a used system problems may arise. There will always be a big debate , same as syn oils. Cheaper and safer to due proper maintainance. http://www.xs11.com/tips/maintenance/maint1.shtml

[Numbknots]

Thank Gene,

I definetly learned something here (I thought I knew already how to care for trailer brakes) I will likely replace the brakes on one axle?

Tim

[heymagic]

I would probably recommend changing all the friction material at the same time. That way you are reasonably sure the material is of the same spec and will brake evenly.

[Numbknots]

Gene,

I haven't put a micrometer on the rotors yet, but they sure did get roasted! I am going to look into other manufactures, of rotor/caliper assemblies, as the axles are pretty standard 3500lb units. I will pull the master cylinder apart as well and see what the bore looks like? I am still trying to convince the Admiral that all this wouldn't have happened if I would go diving every other week and in between trips take the big boat out! (by the way I am going to be in Oly tomorrow diving the boat to check zincs and the bottom. If you are in town look me up we can do lunch/coffee or dinner, I will probably spend the night and come home on Wednesday.

Tim

[Numbknots]

anyone have any experience with "Kodiak" ss hydraulic disk brakes?? How about "King trailers" built in Marysville??

Tim

[SomeSailor]

I had a King tandem and wasn't particularily impressed with the brake system on it either. It was kept pretty clean after the salt but still managed to accumulate rust.

[Numbknots]

Guys,

I am in no hurry to make repairs/replace trailer, I will continue to probe for input.

Thanks,

Tim

[SomeSailor]

You should really look at what Bob (Webjammin) did on his. All stainless, AN fittings throughout, mechanical lockout valve and stainless rotors.

Really turned out nicely and should last longer than the trailer I'd imagine.

[Numbknots]

SS,

What manufacture of Brakes did he use??? I have found, either Kodiak or Tie-down engineering?

Bob, you there?? Can you share some details?

Thanks

Tim

PS: SS, how is the JOB going?

[Webjammin]

Tim

I used the Tie Down Engineering Stainless Brakes (12" 6 Lugs) and I purchased them from Northern Tool. (http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_326686_326686) they also have (10" 5 lugs).

Here are some pictures of the install

http://www.iboatnw.com/gallery/data/media/10/tbrake0.JPG
http://www.iboatnw.com/gallery/data/media/10/tbrake5.JPG
http://www.iboatnw.com/gallery/data/media/10/tbrake6.JPG

If you would like me to take some photos of the Aircraft Quality Brakelines let me know.

BTW: I also removed the check valve (diaphram) from the back of my Dico Surge Hitch.

Let me know if you want more info or photos.

[Numbknots]

Bob,

Thanks. I also used Tie-down brake components. The setup I used had SS rotors, but not the calipers/ or mounting plates or lines. Did you replace the coupler and all the lines? I purchased a Atco surge coupler with the backup solenoid for disc brakes, you said you removed yours?? how do you back your trailer? (manually block the coupler??) Also I would like to know more about the Aeroquip fittings that you used to connect to the ???flexible lines to the calipers?? how much freeplay do you have in your coupler before brake pressure is applied to the calipers??

Feel free to send info to my email address in my profile
Thanks,

Tim