Old Expired flares

[Ssounder]

What do you folks do with your old, expired 12 gauge flares? I thought about shooting them into a container of water but, not sure if I should use a 5 gallon or garbage can. -I don't want hot phosphorus burning something up. Also, I don't know how many shots those plastic pistols will hold up to. Someone told me I should hold onto some and "shoot them first" but I disagree. If I'm in an emergency situation, I'm shooting fresh flares.
On another note, the handheld flares drip a lot of extremely hot slag so if you are using them in the boat, hold them well over the side. If you are burning them for disposal, be forwarned that the slag will burn your lawn or stain your driveway.

[Salmon Troller]

I was told to keep them on board for up to 10 years as extras. They should be stored apart from the main signals container, that way your fresh ones are the 1st available and there should be no confusion during an inspection. I keep my old hand held & 12 ga flares in a plastic bag in a drawer.

If you still want to get rid of them, I believe that the USCG or the Aux will take them. They really don't want you firing these things off even at the 4th of July because everyone will report an emergency.
Jim

[Sundancer]

I've got some shotgun shells that I reloaded from the 70's that are still good. I can't imagine the flares would be any different? Unless you have drawers full of them, keep them as a back-up. I keep the newer flares attached to the clip on the gun so I know which ones are current. The rest are in a bag in the same spot to be used if necessary.

The real question is what is a prudent amount? I would imagine that 9 of these would be more than enough? But, they don't take up that much room.

[pkrogh]

I've fired flare cartridges, hand helds and smoke that were at least 10 years old and not one was a dud. Of course they were stored cool and dry.

I have a suspicion that the dating might be based on really old chemistries and the 'newer' stuff, made in the last 25 years or so, is way more stable. ?????

Our local USCG Aux. takes out of date pyrotechnics for use in training classes. Saves them lots of money!

Pete

[Nehalennia]

I have a couple expired ones that I suppose won't hurt if I throw in a bag.
I'm thinking of mounting a tool box in the engine bay. I could throw them in there I guess.

[Sundancer]

I have a couple expired ones that I suppose won't hurt if I throw in a bag.
I'm thinking of mounting a tool box in the engine bay. I could throw them in there I guess.
Might be a little tough to get to if you need them and the heating from the engine might not be the best place to store the shells! Just a thought.....

[Nehalennia]

Might be a little tough to get to if you need them and the heating from the engine might not be the best place to store the shells! Just a thought.....
Yeah that's true, I'll find a good spot of forward.

[SomeSailor]

What do you folks do with your old, expired 12 gauge flares? I thought about shooting them into a container of water but, not sure if I should use a 5 gallon or garbage can. -I don't want hot phosphorus burning something up. Also, I don't know how many shots those plastic pistols will hold up to. Someone told me I should hold onto some and "shoot them first" but I disagree. If I'm in an emergency situation, I'm shooting fresh flares.
On another note, the handheld flares drip a lot of extremely hot slag so if you are using them in the boat, hold them well over the side. If you are burning them for disposal, be forwarned that the slag will burn your lawn or stain your driveway.

Save them for the 4th of July and use them as a training opportunity for your family (land only). That way your family can get a better idea of how it works. If you're just trying to get rid of them, most marine stores will collect expired ones, and most Power Squadron and USCG Auxiliary orgs will take them as training aids.

Keeping them on the boat is a bad idea though. If you're getting peace of mind by having an expired shell on board... you'd be better served by buying spares. Imagine the time lost if you needed that last shot... and it failed. Could mean a life.

[Go Aweigh2452]

Save them for the 4th of July and use them as a training opportunity for your family (land only). That way your family can get a better idea of how it works. If you're just trying to get rid of them, most marine stores will collect expired ones, and most Power Squadron and USCG Auxiliary orgs will take them as training aids.

Keeping them on the boat is a bad idea though. If you're getting peace of mind by having an expired shell on board... you'd be better served by buying spares. Imagine the time lost if you needed that last shot... and it failed. Could mean a life.

My local CG Aux does not take them so I would guess, it would depend on the Aux in your area. I like the training idea as long as you are in a landlocked area... and no chance for a field fire...

I do keep my expired flares in each vehicle. I have at least three in each one.

Question I have is... I keep my new flares inthe store bought container... is that OK? I forget since I have not had a boat inspection lately...

[SomeSailor]

Question I have is... I keep my new flares inthe store bought container... is that OK? I forget since I have not had a boat inspection lately...

We went down this path a few years back on BOC. We finally got in touch with the CG over it and their take was that during a vessel inspection, an expired flare or other pyrotechnic is a ticketable discrepancy. Of course... that's IF you show it to them, but still it's a bad idea.

If you're counting on something to save your life or someone elses... use a new one... If it's a pyrotechnic that's only there as an extra... get it off the boat once expired.

I shoot mine on the 4th of July. I have a pile of expired ones at the house right now. Unless you've actually seen one... or discharged your pistol yourself... I'd highly recommend it. Very cool, and you'll feel better knowing you've done it before.

[Go Aweigh2452]

OK, my question is... assuming they are NOT expired, are they OK in the original store bought packaging... Or, like life vests, should the outer plastic be removed?

[Ssounder]

I agree that it could be a good training opportunity. So about how many shots do you figure the pistol is good for before it's compromised? I don't think those are made for an unlimited amount of shots.
Does the flare come down burning hot or is it normally pretty spent (hot but not glowing) before hitting the ground?

[Pegasis]

I have a friend who shot off 10 or so expired metior flares when his engines quit and he thought he was going to drift aground. After the CG towed him back to the dock they did an inspection of his boat. The first thing he said they did was to inspect the spent hulls on the deck of his boat. All of the hulls showed expired dates. They wanted to write him a ticket for not having current flares aboard his boat when he pulled three new ones out of his kit.

He had everything to pass the inspection so they didn't write a ticket for expired flares.

I keep the new flares attached to the pistol and the expired flares in the bottom of the container. As long as you have the required number of flares with current dates, they can't write you a ticket for having out of date flares aboard your boat.

[Nehalennia]

....... an expired flare or other pyrotechnic is a ticketable discrepancy.........
Well that settles it. The old is off the boat.

[SomeSailor]

I agree that it could be a good training opportunity. So about how many shots do you figure the pistol is good for before it's compromised? I don't think those are made for an unlimited amount of shots.
Does the flare come down burning hot or is it normally pretty spent (hot but not glowing) before hitting the ground?

You'll be pretty fairly underwhelmed when you see it. Your average Chinese bottle rocket will have more chance of drawing attention. :(

If you haven't shot one, by all means go for it. Read the instructions, take your time and use it as a training opportunity. They look like shotgun shells... but are barely loaded and won't kick like you're anticipating.

[pkrogh]

I agree with Mike on the personal training. Most folks have never fired or lit off a flare or smoke and in a pinch they are fumbling around trying to figure out how to make 'em work! Since flares are usually used at night, that's a bad time to try and learn.

Around here, on the 4th, there are sooooo many fireworks being launched off the beaches that a boat flare is 'invisible'.

I trained the admiral on these signals a few years ago on the 4th. Need to do it again with her this 4th!! I'll bet she's still afraid of them.

Pete

[SomeSailor]

Yeah... I want the wife and kids to be able to shoot a flare if the need arises, and once a year training is pretty cheap. :)

[Randygh]

I'd never thought about teaching the Admiral how to shoot the flare pistol, but it's a good idea. Fourth of July sounds like a good time, but New Year's would be better around here. Much less chance of starting a fire in dry vegetation.

[SomeSailor]

They're pretty whimpy shells. I think you'll agree most fireworks have more umph. :)

[Ssounder]

OK I agree that I'm disposing of all of my expired flares. I'll shoot enough for training/familiarity. Get an idea of their range and velocity. This should give me an idea of whether it's safe to shoot the rest into a bucket of water for quick disposal. I will not throw flares away unspent. -It is not safe.
It might be interesting to see if the oldest ones shoot as high as the newer (expired) ones.
BTW. If you've never lit a handheld, get ready for molten hot slag dripping (flowing) on the ground. -Best to let them drip in a bucket of water so you don't damage the yard or driveway. If you are using handhelds on the boat, don't plan to stand on the bow with the flare held over your head :eek:, hold them well over the side...

[MartySchwartz]

Well that settles it. The old is off the boat.

Having expire flares on board is NOT a "ticketable" offense, not having current flares is. If you do not have the minimum number (and type) of current flares/smokes on board during a boarding by USCG or law enforcement you will get a ticket.

During a safety inspection by the USCG Aux or US Power Squadron the lack of current flares will cause you the fail the inspection but you will not get a ticket from them.

The 12-gauge flares do not go very high or burn very long. I recommend you keep the old ones as backup.

Marty...........................

[Nehalennia]

Having expire flares on board is NOT a "ticketable" offense, not having current flares is. If you do not have the minimum number (and type) of current flares/smokes on board during a boarding by USCG or law enforcement you will get a ticket.

During a safety inspection by the USCG Aux or US Power Squadron the lack of current flares will cause you the fail the inspection but you will not get a ticket from them.

The 12-gauge flares do not go very high or burn very long. I recommend you keep the old ones as backup.

Marty...........................

That was my plan to keep them as backups. I have new sets of both gun and hand flares.

[SomeSailor]

Having expire flares on board is NOT a "ticketable" offense, not having current flares is.

I beg to differ. Expired pyrotechnics is a safety issue. Doesn't matter if you have 100 good ones... if you pull out an expired one... he'll tell you to get rid of it.

We went round and round about this a few years ago... someone finally contacted the CG about it and they that ANY safety device that is inop, unsafe or not of sufficient capacity would get their attention.

Think about it... do you want to waste a single opportunity to signal a rescue with a flare that goes half way up? Or one that is stubborn to light? or is corroded and doesn't fire... what about a hang fire or a breech burn? Are those little plastic guns rated or setup to support those? Nope.

If they're out of date... dispose of them properly. That can be in a training evolution or through any of the local dealers. Harbor marine has a trash can FULL of them as you walk in the doors.

[tolly28]

It's the same case with a fire extinguisher. Even an "extra" above and beyond required needs to be up to date....

[Ssounder]

[QUOTE=SomeSailor;23365]
Think about it... do you want to waste a single opportunity to signal a rescue with a flare that goes half way up? Or one that is stubborn to light? or is corroded and doesn't fire... what about a hang fire or a breech burn? Are those little plastic guns rated or setup to support those? Nope.

That was my thought as well. There is a reason they have an expiration date. Expired pyro could pose a safety issue. If you need peace of mind, buy extras.

[SomeSailor]

It's the same case with a fire extinguisher. Even an "extra" above and beyond required needs to be up to date....

I do that with my wife's business. I have two 15lb dry chem bottles that I rotate through the service guy. When one goes out of service, I put the fresh one in service... move the expired to the garage and a spare for my laser (alongside a 40# CO2)... and then it goes to the safety shop. It is NEVER in the house when out of date.

Last thing I want to do is grab a fire bottle and have ANY reason to think it might not work.

[MartySchwartz]

I beg to differ. Expired pyrotechnics is a safety issue. Doesn't matter if you have 100 good ones... if you pull out an expired one... he'll tell you to get rid of it.

We went round and round about this a few years ago... someone finally contacted the CG about it and they that ANY safety device that is inop, unsafe or not of sufficient capacity would get their attention.

Think about it... do you want to waste a single opportunity to signal a rescue with a flare that goes half way up? Or one that is stubborn to light? or is corroded and doesn't fire... what about a hang fire or a breech burn? Are those little plastic guns rated or setup to support those? Nope.

If they're out of date... dispose of them properly. That can be in a training evolution or through any of the local dealers. Harbor marine has a trash can FULL of them as you walk in the doors.

Interesting, that has not been my experience and that is not what is taught for Vessel Safety examiners. I have had this conversation with several Coast Guard folks and the guidance from the coast guard is to keep them separate from the current pyros but not that you must get rid of them.

Marty.......................

[SomeSailor]

Well... it is a federal law that they expire 42 months after manufacture.

This is in itself, done for a safety reason. Chemicals deteriorate, primer caps corrode, etc. The flares are less than $10 each. That's cheap in my book.

[MartySchwartz]

Well... it is a federal law that they expire 42 months after manufacture.

This is in itself, done for a safety reason. Chemicals deteriorate, primer caps corrode, etc. The flares are less than $10 each. That's cheap in my book.

I don't disagree that they will eventually deteriorate, especially is stored improperly. The expiration date is the date is, as you said, set by law and is the date through which the manufacturer must guarantee they will function to meet minimum requirements. To meet that requirement the manufacturers make them such that they will operate correctly for much longer. The only requirement that the USCG places on expired flares is that they not be stored in the same container as the current ones. Even though they are expired they should still be stored in a "dry, cool" location such as a one of those plastic ammo boxes. Every April out Power Squadron holds a "Safety" rendezvous and we teach people how to used flares and smokes. We always have a good supply of expired flares (some as old as 25 years out of date) to shoot off and the only ones that failed were the old hand-held ones. The 12-gauge and 25-mm all worked as advertised.

The ColRegs state what is required on board and are basically silent on what is not allowed. The notable exception is where they talk about what lights may be displayed while underway. During a safety boarding the USCG, or law enforcement, can write citations only for those items that do not meet the required equipment. I suppose that an individual inspector could really stretch and try to cite having expired flares on board as an "Unsafe" condition but they would have a real hard time making it stick.

[SomeSailor]

I suppose that an individual inspector could really stretch and try to cite having expired flares on board as an "Unsafe" condition but they would have a real hard time making it stick.

I wouldn't say it's a stretch at all. The LAW requires inspection criteria for ALL safety equipment. If the regs require an item to be inspected... then there is a criteria that applies.

Here's an example:


Visual Distress Signals: All boats on the water must be equipped with some sort of day and night visual distress signaling derive. In boats under 16 feet, these can be one and the same, namely a flashlight that can be operated to send a flashing Morse SOS, as well as find your anchored boat after Happy Hour ashore. There are exceptions to this regulation. You need not carry a day signalling device aboard boats in a race or marine parade, if you are in an open sailboat under 26 feet or if you are in a boat propelled solely by oars. After sunset, however, you must carry a night signaling device.
— Boats between 16 and 65 feet must carry the following:
— By day: An orange flag bearing a black square and a black circle; or three floating, orange smoke signals; or, three hand-held, orange smoke signals.
— By night (only): An electric distress light capable of signalling in Morse, such as a flashlight with an on-off button.
— By day and night (combination signals): Three red parachute flares; or, three red meteor (pyrotechnic) flares; or, three hand-held red flares; or, three red pistol fired flares. Note: Flares must be dated by the manufacturer. Flares more than three years old will be considered by inspecting safety officers as being out-of date.


Now... can you read that as "They'll only inspect what they're shown..." Sure. But, I'd rather keep my safety devices within inspection dates.

[MartySchwartz]

I wouldn't say it's a stretch at all. The LAW requires inspection criteria for ALL safety equipment. If the regs require an item to be inspected... then there is a criteria that applies.

Here's an example:



Now... can you read that as "They'll only inspect what they're shown..." Sure. But, I'd rather keep my safety devices within inspection dates.

That means that to satisfy the on-board equipment requirement they must not be expired. The original statement was that having expired flares on board was a ticketable offense and that is simply not the case. If you choose to not carry expired flares IN ADDITION to flares that are current that is fine. It is also fine if you choose to keep flares that are expired IN ADDITION to the current ones. Either direction is a choice and neither carries a legal penalty.

Marty.........................

[SomeSailor]

Marty...

What would be the point in "carrying" them... if you didn't have the thought to perhaps USE them in an emergency?

It's EMERGENCY equipment... Isn't your safety worth the few $$$ it would take to keep them up to date?

Do you REALLY think you'll need EXTRA flares or cartridges? If so... why not buy some?

I want the peace of mind that safety equipment (that is IN shelf life) will work when I try need it. No mis-fires, no hang fires, no lower performance.

[MartySchwartz]

Let's agree to disagree on this and let it drop.

[Play N Hookie II]

So this thread made me check my flares prior to taking the boat out this year and they have expired as of 9-07. Here is my question...How many of each are required? I am going today to get new ones. I currently have like 12 of the shotgun ones and 6 of the handhelds. I dont have my reg books here but if someone has a quick answer that would be great. Then I am going to find a place for the admiral, first mate (daughter) and myself to practice witht the old ones since that is such an invaluable lesson for all of us.

Best regards,
Erik

[Go Aweigh2452]

handheld flares come prepacked in groups of 4 (minimum). Just check the expiration date when you purchase due to possible old stock may get mixed with newer ones... Not sure if there is a requirement on the gun shells.. at least not for my size boat... but the same expiration dates apply. I do however carry a prepackaged box with the gun and shells in my ditch bag.
http://www.orionsignals.com/images3/locate-864-01.jpghttp://www.orionsignals.com/images3/m-535.jpg

[SomeSailor]

Let's agree to disagree on this and let it drop.

No worries. I just hate it when people "figure out" ways to make themselves safer.

There's a reason we have warnings and expiration dates and other such restraints in society. 99% of the situations a person gets into would be fine... and yes, I'm sure the flares would ignite...

BUT... I come from an aviation background. You only get a limited number of great ideas when things go wrong. Every time you expend one... you might find yourself out of time to react to the next.

[SomeSailor]

So this thread made me check my flares prior to taking the boat out this year and they have expired as of 9-07. Here is my question...How many of each are required? I am going today to get new ones. I currently have like 12 of the shotgun ones and 6 of the handhelds. I dont have my reg books here but if someone has a quick answer that would be great. Then I am going to find a place for the admiral, first mate (daughter) and myself to practice witht the old ones since that is such an invaluable lesson for all of us.

Best regards,
Erik

Hi Erik;

The requirements are based on length.

Item 4 - Visual Distress Signals (VDS): Recreational boats 16 feet and over used on coastal waters or the Great Lakes are required to carry a minimum of either 1) three day and three night pyrotechnic devices, 2) one day non-pyrotechnic device (flag) and one night non-pyrotechnic device (auto SOS light) or 3) a combination of 1) and 2). Recreational boats less than 16 feet on coastal waters or the Great Lakes need only carry night visual distress signals when operating from sunset to sunrise.
It is recommended, but not required, that boats operating on inland waters should have some means of making a suitable day and night distress signal. The number and type of signals is best judged by considering conditions under which the boat will be operating. Alternatives to pyrotechnic devices (flares) include:

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Night</td> <td>Day</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Strobe light</td> <td>Signal mirror</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Flashlight</td> <td>Red or orange flags</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Lantern</td> <td>Hand signals</td></tr></tbody></table>

Here's a link to a description of the different options:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/mse4/vds.htm

[Play N Hookie II]

Thank you very much for your help!!


Hi Erik;

The requirements are based on length.

Item 4 - Visual Distress Signals (VDS): Recreational boats 16 feet and over used on coastal waters or the Great Lakes are required to carry a minimum of either 1) three day and three night pyrotechnic devices, 2) one day non-pyrotechnic device (flag) and one night non-pyrotechnic device (auto SOS light) or 3) a combination of 1) and 2). Recreational boats less than 16 feet on coastal waters or the Great Lakes need only carry night visual distress signals when operating from sunset to sunrise.
It is recommended, but not required, that boats operating on inland waters should have some means of making a suitable day and night distress signal. The number and type of signals is best judged by considering conditions under which the boat will be operating. Alternatives to pyrotechnic devices (flares) include:

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Night</td> <td>Day</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Strobe light</td> <td>Signal mirror</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Flashlight</td> <td>Red or orange flags</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Lantern</td> <td>Hand signals</td></tr></tbody></table>

Here's a link to a description of the different options:

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/mse4/vds.htm