Need advice please

[Play N Hookie II]

I got a call just now from my mechanic who was winterizing my boat for me. We started the boat and it started up just fine then it died like all cold blooded engines do. He tried to start it back up and the starter would not engage. He checked the solenoid and discovered the starter was loose. A bolt had broken on the starter.

The issue with this is that the starter is so hard to get to that this will mean the engine has to come out and it sounds like a boom truck has to be rented. I have not been through this before so any advice is helpful.

Are there other maintenance issues I should take care of while the engine is out?

I would appreciate any advice that anyone has. The worst part is that the starter was just replaced about 4 months ago. I do trust this mechanic and don't think it is his fault at all but I wonder if any of you would hold him responsible or chalk it up to bad luck. I think this is going to be really expensive.

One thing I was thinking about was installing one of those oild change hoses that comes out of the garboard. Any advice on that? Photos? Ugh!!

[SomeSailor]

Before he rents a boom truck. I talked to the guy two stalls down that was changing a motor and Dagmars will lift them in and out for something like $45.

If you only need to lift it to get the starter bolt, you could do like the guy across from me and use a chain fall on a beam across the gunnels.

[Sundancer]

So you just pulled the motor to replace the starter 4 months ago? Is it possible the prior mechanic (or the same guy) would do it at a reduced cost since they may have been the one that overtightened the bolt? Just a thought. I can't believe there isn't some work around to get to the starter? At this point, I'd put a new starter in again. The gears might be messed up if they didn't engage and mesh while trying to restart it.

[Nehalennia]

Man you've had a bad year. Yes I'd install the oil drain hose kit. Also, I'd call the mechanic that did the starter and tell him what happened and see what he says.
While you're in there and the engine is out is a great time to get the engine bay clean and tidy. Check for any rot issues and check your bilge pumps.
Sorry to hear about it.

[Go Aweigh2452]

Like Mike says... But if you do pull the engine all the way, it would also be a great idea to change out the older bilge pump for a higher capacity one, repaint the bilge if it is looking nasty, check condition of the engine mounts for rust and cracking, install a remote engine lift rocker on the stern (I always forget to drop the engine down after I park it), install underwater stern lights on the trim tabs...

Lets see... what else can I help you spend money on???? :eek:

[Play N Hookie II]

So you just pulled the motor to replace the starter 4 months ago? Is it possible the prior mechanic (or the same guy) would do it at a reduced cost since they may have been the one that overtightened the bolt? Just a thought. I can't believe there isn't some work around to get to the starter? At this point, I'd put a new starter in again. The gears might be messed up if they didn't engage and mesh while trying to restart it.

We did not have to pull the engine to get the starter out. I tried and tried to rreplace it myself but it was the most rediculous thing and I could not get to it. I had him replace it and he was able to get the job done and it has been fine for the past 4-6 months or whenever it was. I am starting to think tht maybe due to the hard to get to that one of the bolts never got fully tightened and since it was loose there was some play and eventually snapped. That seems more likely than it was overtorqued.

Thanks for the advice guys.

[Nehalennia]

......... I am starting to think tht maybe due to the hard to get to that one of the bolts never got fully tightened .......Thanks for the advice guys.

That's what I was thinking

[Tedster]

If you pull make sure you check the oil pans condition, mine was rusted through, as long as you have it out it is a easy and cheap fix.

[SomeSailor]

A cool rig is a 4x6 timber across the gunnels to get the motor free and up of the mounts with a chain fall. Dagmars will lift the motor out for a few bucks. Like folks are saying, it's a great time to clean everything up. Buy a cheap motor stand from Harbor Freight and have them sit your motor in your truck. You can take it home and clean it up or simply roll it on the stand and replace the broken bolt.

I'd be tempted to work a bit to get the bolt out before pulling the motor myself though. You could get to it with a angle drill, or die grinder perhaps?

[voyager]

Like Mike said don't rent a boom truck. Dagmar's will lift it for you, rent a stand and they will sit the engine on it for you. When I replaced my drive plate this year I had to lift the engine. A solid 4X4 or better yet a 4X6 with a come along will lift the engine enough to do what you want to do. I lifted the rear of mine with a cable winch from Harbor freight. That was the easiest part of the repair. I still have the cable winch and I am pretty sure it is rated to lift your engine.

[waju]

I had to pull the engine back in June. I had to remove the radar arch, the heat exchanger, and I removed the exhaust manifolds. The engine has to come up a bit and then turn 90 degrees to come out. The manifolds might not have to be removed but it made it easier and I didn't want to do it on the fly while paying $60.00 an hour for a boom truck.

[Go Aweigh2452]

What Ted said... check the oil pan. You can get a composite oil pan that will never rust! Great idea... and get the oil drain kit for it too. ($20)...

[Chass]

We did not have to pull the engine to get the starter out. I tried and tried to rreplace it myself but it was the most rediculous thing and I could not get to it. I had him replace it and he was able to get the job done and it has been fine for the past 4-6 months or whenever it was. I am starting to think tht maybe due to the hard to get to that one of the bolts never got fully tightened and since it was loose there was some play and eventually snapped. That seems more likely than it was overtorqued.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I've never seen loose bolts snap. Its bolts that are over tightened that snap . . . .


Get in there. I've never seen a part that couldn't be figured out in the boat/truck/car/rig etc. with a little work, tools and patience.

Chass
ct

[SomeSailor]

I have a 1/2 ton chain fall too Erik. You can buy a 4x6 beam for $20 at Lowes and lift the motor clean easily. (I lifted my whole little carver with it)

Once you go through the trouble of lifting it that far, it only makes sense to do things like coupler and new starter, bilge clean, ect.

[Play N Hookie II]

Well I talked to Mike (my mechanic) Friday and he thinks he will be able to get it out without removing the engine. That is good news. I will keep everyone posted. Thanks for all the tips and advice.

[Tedster]

Mike be the man! Good to hear.

[Randygh]

Good to hear he can pull the starter, but if there is a broken bolt still threaded in the mounting hole, will he be able to drill and use an easy out? That could be a real pain in the rear. I can hear all kinds of swear words trying to get that broken end out of there.

[Go Aweigh2452]

In that case (thread a new bolt), it will be one expensive bolt...

[Play N Hookie II]

Good to hear he can pull the starter, but if there is a broken bolt still threaded in the mounting hole, will he be able to drill and use an easy out? That could be a real pain in the rear. I can hear all kinds of swear words trying to get that broken end out of there.

He was talking with someone who told him that the almost never break off flush and that once the starter is off then he will likely get it out using his fingers. If that is the case it will be much more reasonable.

[Play N Hookie II]

Well no good news for me. He spent 4 hours trying to get that stupid bolt to no avail. Now the engine has to come out. He only charged me for two hours but that is still another couple hundred drained. He says it is going to take 8 hours to pull the engine. I am assuming that means 4 hours for two people. That seems reasonable. B.O.A.T. I really didn't want to throw a unit out for this purpose. :eek:

[Nehalennia]

Sorry to hear that Erik. Frustrating for sure. Who's doing the work for you?

[Play N Hookie II]

Sorry to hear that Erik. Frustrating for sure. Who's doing the work for you?

Mike from United Marine. I have been really happy with him thus far. Thanks again Tedster!:mrgreen:

[Go Aweigh2452]

Sorry to hear about that... Now you can concentrate on the other projects once the engine is out... I'd change out the pan for sure for a composite and add the oil kit to the bottom...

[SomeSailor]

He says it is going to take 8 hours to pull the engine. I am assuming that means 4 hours for two people. That seems reasonable.

Sounds reasonable for that amount of work.

What's he including in that? Just gonna lift it to get the bolt and re-stab it? Hawley Marine there at Dagmars said "9 - 12 hours" of labor just to change U-joints, Gimbal bearing and rubber parts, PLUS the parts (another $400 or so).

[Randygh]

Eric--Sorry to hear the mechanic couldn't extract the fractured bolt stub. I bet he'll need to drill out the stub and probably rethread the bolt hole in the mounting ear.

Did you figure out the leak in your transom last summer? With the engine out, could be a good time to replace rusted transom bolts, seals or other items that are impossible to get at with the engine installed.

Is the mechanic going to install a new starter or a remanufactured starter? I think the remanufactured starters have pretty much the same warranty as a new starter. Mike and others would know for sure.

[Go Aweigh2452]

Eric--Sorry to hear the mechanic couldn't extract the fractured bolt stub. I bet he'll need to drill out the stub and probably rethread the bolt hole in the mounting ear.

Did you figure out the leak in your transom last summer? With the engine out, could be a good time to replace rusted transom bolts, seals or other items that are impossible to get at with the engine installed.

Is the mechanic going to install a new starter or a remanufactured starter? I think the remanufactured starters have pretty much the same warranty as a new starter. Mike and others would know for sure.


MAKE SURE THEY BENCH TEST THE STARTER BEFORE THEY INSTALL!!!

Seen them fail w/i first one or two trys on start...

[Tedster]

Mike from United Marine. I have been really happy with him thus far. Thanks again Tedster!:mrgreen:

No worries Erik, Mike will do you right!

[Play N Hookie II]

He is going to pull the engine drill out the bolt (which is broken inside the threading) replace the starter and clean out the bilge while they are there so I don't have to leave work. I am going to have him find that leak in the transom as well which is likely in the exhaust. The timing is poor as I don't reallly want to drop a bunch of money in the oil pan and oil changing thing. Does anyone have a link to that kit? That is the one you pull through the garboard drain correct? I was going to spring for getting the boat professionally detailed. I found a guy who does good work inside and out for $12 a foot. That is a pretty good price. I will have to take care of this mess first.

[tolly28]

$12 a foot... must not be much of a detail job? Your money would be better spent on your machinery, IMHO.

[Randygh]

Eric--Your mechanic will earn every penny you pay him to remove the fractured bolt. I've done it and after about a gallon of penetrating oil, several broken drill bits and some words that would make a sailor blush, the job was completed.

[bradvo]

Eric--Your mechanic will earn every penny you pay him to remove the fractured bolt. I've done it and after about a gallon of penetrating oil, several broken drill bits and some words that would make a sailor blush, the job was completed.


Dont start with a drill bit, use a center drill ( at lower RPM ) as pictured below, this is a stubby one but an example of what it looks like. Use a little cutting oil to keep the friction down, or just oil if around. Many times I can get deep enough with this tool ( carbide ) to insert the extractor.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/lyndsituition/S-CenterDrill.jpg

[Randygh]

Now that center drill looks like a gizmo. I've never used one, but I'm going to check the hardware store for them.

[Go Aweigh2452]

I just use a carbine drill and run it in about 1/8-1/4 inch, then use the screw extractor. Last time they came as a set...
http://z.about.com/d/homerepair/1/5/V/3/-/-/screw_extractor.jpg

[Fred P]

IMHO EZ outs will only work on broken bolts that will come out easy. A left hand drill will work better than an EZ out. The problem with EZ outs is that they expand what is left of the bolt and makes it harder to turn. I have had the best luck welding a nut to the end of the broken bolt. If it does not come out after about three tries of welding nuts on it it is time to drill it out. The trick is to drill dead center so the only thing left is the thread when you are done drilling, then pick and pull the thread out like a spring. This is easier to say than do. I find that if I clean and grind what is left of the end of the bolt nice and square so that I can start the drill in the center of the bolt. A center drill does work good for getting started right on center. The next trick is to keep the drill cutting on center so that it comes out on center at the other end of the bolt. The nice thing about left hand drills that many times the drill will grab a little and the bolt will just spin out with the drill. A little luck always helps.

Fred P................

[Go Aweigh2452]

If there is enough bolt still out, instead of welding a nut on the end, I have used my thin blade grinder and cut a slot in the head and just use a screw driver to pull the bolt out. Done that many more times then the welded nut trick... though that certainly has merit...

[bradvo]

If you want center to begin with and the broken bolt has a slope angle break, then take a center punch and hammer and give it a wallop. This should indent so the center drill has a place to start without wandering.

Most times if the bolt is easy to get at I always try first with just a prick type punch and a hammer and tap on the top side CC , lot of times I can get it moving out far enough to get a small pair of grips on it.

Fortunately I have only had to remove one broken bolt in the last 5 years on the boat, but have more then my share of screwed up phillip screw heads.

[Nehalennia]

I've used Tri-flow to saturate most broken bolts I've encountered and then using a reverse drill bit. I've heard recently that PB Blaster is a great penetrating oil product as well.

Depending on the diameter and position of the bolt, if you can grind or file a flat surface on the face it allows for drilling a straight centered hole. If you don't have reverse bits, drilling the center with a small bit then stepping up size by size to the walls of the bolt are thinner then easily releasing the bolt if you reverse the bit's direction.

[Chass]

I'm just having a laugh! This thread is great!

There is more information about removing broken bolts here than you could ever want. I love helpful people. It just gave me a smile and a chuckle :)

By the way Todd, I agree. PB Blaster is, thus far, the best thing I've used for rusty bolts.

Chass
ct

[Go Aweigh2452]

Kroil is my all time favorite!

[Stray Cat]

I've had excellent results with PB Blaster as well. Most of the boken bolts that I've encountered weren't going to come out with an EZ out, or any kind of extraction tool. I've spent countless hours fiddling around with them. I've used the weld another bolt technique a couple of times, and that worked, once I think.
I've pretty much given up on extracting, and have gone to the drill it out and HelliCoil or Timesert route. I've had a couple where just drilling it out, and then using a reverse bit did the trick too. I think I decided never to use a extration tool again, when I broke one off. Not good... those things are really hard and really brittle.