2452 Series Questions

[Salmon Troller]

Time to begin a search for a new boat. We are looking for a smaller, faster, newer boat and are just now doing some initial research. Knowing friends have had such good luck with the 2859 and 2452, these have our interest. I posted a note over on the Bayliner 9's site and have some great information on the 2859 boats, so now I need similar information on the 2452. Initially I have some basic questions on the 2452:

1) In any series, there are good years and not so good years. Was this true of the 2452? What features were added or omitted?
2) Power plants good/better? I believe these are all small block 5.7's or variants. Was there ever a big block version, was there any benefit? Which outdrive was available (& desirable)?
3) What is the real world performance (with fuel, people and a loaded ice chest on board)? 25kts? Fuel consumption 1.5NM/Gal?

Thanks,

Jim

[Go Aweigh2452]

Initially I have some basic questions on the 2452:

1) In any series, there are good years and not so good years. Was this true of the 2452? What features were added or omitted?
2) Power plants good/better? I believe these are all small block 5.7's or variants. Was there ever a big block version, was there any benefit? Which outdrive was available (& desirable)?
3) What is the real world performance (with fuel, people and a loaded ice chest on board)? 25kts? Fuel consumption 1.5NM/Gal?

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, same basic design was prevalent from 1992/3-2000/01 when they changed it significantly. That ran for about 5 years to the 242 in 2005 (same design, different name) to the newer total redesigned Discovery 246. Sometime in 1996 the transom had a 12" dip for in and out access across the transom. That stayed that way until BL went to the flat aft deck and we have had true walk through transoms since then.

The pre 2001 had the engine cover above aft deck level and added removable seats either side of the engine box. There were two storage hatches either side of the engine box and allowed for limited access to the engine and storage on a raised bilge area.

Post 2000 had a level aft deck and increased the amount of engine bay room significantly over the pop up engine cover editions. It is also about 1000#'s heavier. The level cockpit & aft cockpit made for three steps vice two going down to the cabin. The cabins are roughly the same layouts for all 2452's and 242's... The 246 made many changes like an aft berth on the port side. But it also made the frig much smaller, one burner stove vice two, and mandated dropping the forward dinette back rest to sleep in the forward berth. The earlier/lighter 2452's had a shore power option so some were either retro fit later on or don't have shore power options at all. The newer/heavier 2452's and 242's all have the shore power option.

The cockpit of the lighter 2452 had a fixed pax seat with storage below and the helm seat was a fold away with no storage below. The heavier 2452's and 242's have seats on top of fiberglass pedestals with lots of storage underneath both seats.

The 2452 & 242 have a bigger forward berth and no requirement to drop the back rest of the dinette to use it. Both have tons of storage options in the cabin and inside the engine bay.

For my money, I would look seriously at the 2000 and newer 2452 and 242 models as they have a lot to offer and can be highly modified. (checkout my signature for both a 96 and my current 2001 2452). They have much easier engine bay access and lots more storage options than the lighter 2452's

The engine options were/are 5.0 and 5.7. The earlier, lighter 2452's (with engine box) were fine with the 5.0. I think the newer flat aft cockpit 2452's and newer are under powered with the 5.0. Earlier models had the alpha drive standard and BII option. The newer 246 and post 2005 had the BIII and 5.7's. Probably the best combo would be a 5.7 with a BIII. Next would be the 5.7 with a BII and then the Alpha and then the 5.0 with BII then 5.0 with Alpha.

The lighter 2452's cruised well with a 5.7 around 3250 and the heavier ones cruise well around 3500 with a 5.7 due to the weight increase. The 5.7 will not work as hard as the 5.0 so all things being equal, the 5.7 should last longer before rebuilds/ replacements.

I recall my '96 with the 5.7 MAG MPI got about 2-2.5nm/gal when cruising around 25kts. The lighter 2452's WOT with the 5.0 is about 34 kts average. The 5.7 will give you 43-45 kts WOT with a two bbl and more with 4 bbl. My current 2452 with the 6.2 Horizon gets 2nm/gal but I cruise at 28kts as that is its sweet spot. It is also about 600#'s heavier than the 5.7 I replaced it with. It will do well over 50 kts but the hull is not designed for those speeds and I have never pushed it since break in at that speed. It freaked me out a bit.

My profile has both email and phone info if you want to discuss more or ask ???'s...

[kimosammy]

Well, here is my input.<O:p</O:p
For #2 and #3, I had a ’93 with a 5.0 Merc, alpha II with a SS 16x16 prop for 10yrs. Two adults only, with an average weight of two days of food and gear. Whatever this means…I could go from Edmonds to Friday harbor at 23 to 25mph using ~ 40gals (35 to 40) of fuel getting there. The engine had 1200hrs and the OD was rebuilt one time. It would probably be better to get the higher output motor, but not highly recommended.

[Salmon Troller]

Doug,
Thanks, I figured you would spot this posting and have the information and insight I need. Between you and Mike, you have narrowed this down a bunch. We have been very impressed with both boats and can see that either one will work. I'm sure to have more questions, but this will get us started in the right direction.
Regards!
Jim

[SomeSailor]

They're real close cousins. They share very similar layouts, but the 2859 has aft berth that is really nice. The layout of the galley area is essential mirrored between them. The 2859 has nice tall gunnels which I like a lot as well.

[Salmon Troller]

That similarity will make a decision tough, but then again there is really no bad decision either. With our daughter off now, it is just the two of us these days so no need for our big old boat and either of these two models will give us the speed & economy to expand our range. The 28 has more room and that mid-ship berth is very nice, but the 24 burns half the fuel and would be easier to operate single handed (the rear door is a big plus). They both look great to fish out of, something that our old boat did not do well. I plan to take the winter looking which will give us plenty of time to wander around looking and exploring to consider both in detail.

I have never owned an I/O before and respect that long term salt water storage is not good, so part of this plan will be a change from in-water moorage to a dry storage (likely Dagmar's), which has both good and bad points, but would make sense. It will be an interesting off season!

[Go Aweigh2452]

Jim, why not go to Dagmars and check out both models there? Our 2452 is perfect for us taking up to 3 weeks at a time with no problem. The Admiral would like to go with a 28 but when push comes to shove, she handles our size boat well and seldom complains about it since we get to our destination in short order and can set up house in a couple of mins. It takes some planning to figure out where to store stuff so you need not move things out of the way to get access but once that is done, its a no brainer...

Yes a 28 would be nice but like you said, it takes some more fuel to get there... But again, if you are not going to trailer and think Dagmars is where you will berth, then maybe the 28 would be a better fit for you? We like to trailer to many other locations and find that is very convenient to do so. the 28 is trailerable but you'll need both of you to load and unload. I single handle my 2452 on and off the trailer a lot and would probably be able to do so with the 28 but I rather not... The 24 is nice to fish from. Most post 2001 2452's up here probably already have downriggers and electronics and that should save you 1/2 the price of refitting. The gunnels are high on the 2452 as well.

Probably the biggest plus with the 28 is the ability to shower inside. We have to shower on deck near the transom door. But if you are only on the hook once in a while...

[SomeSailor]

A couple of selling points with the 2859 we really like are like Doug said, the ability to shower on board. Also, the completely private aft berth gives room for folks to change clothes with some privacy. It's a full size bed down there too, so you can sleep 4 without having to convert anything... 6 if you drop the table and make the bed there. We sleep on the V-Berth and since the widest part of the boat, it's a full 7-8 feet across (lots of room).

We have TONS of storage on the 2859. I single-hand her on all occasions. It's a very stable boat and handles very predictably at the docks. Fuel economy (for mine) is around 1.4 nMPG at best so I get pretty good range at 28-30 MPH cruise.

[kwb]

The added beam on the 28 will make a much more stable boat as you walk side to side. It is a peeve of mine when boat lists one way or the other, and two people at the table in the 24 makes it just to the point of being annoying (to me). When I bought last boat my shopping list was 2556, Contessa, or 2859. Unless you are going to trailer a lot (or sling in) then wider beam is good to have and the added fuel isn't that much in the scheme of things.

[Randygh]

Our 26' Carver is a very good fit for our current needs. With the 5.7 VP dp I run at 20 mph (3,200 rpm), 1.7-2.0 miles per gallon. Shower in our head, very large galley table, large amount of storage, easy towing (8') beam, big countertop next to stove and great for fishing. We don't need an extra berth at this time, but down the road when the grandkids are older we might. The only things I wish our boat had was a 9' beam and transom door. I really like the 2859's, but because Stevens Pass has stretches of really ****ty road, a wider boat would result in a white-knuckle trip.

[fishaman]

I have a 93' 2452, 5.7 with Bravo II outdrive. When I bought it 6 years ago, it did not have shorepower and fridge, had to install them myself, was pretty straitforward. I love the boat, perfect for fishing, and we do a lot of cruising with my wife and 10 year old daughter. My wife really wants 2859, she's getting tired of getting the table converted at night on our trips. But this year on our trip from Friday Harbor to Edmonds we burned only 32 gallons of gas, it sure will be different with 2859, and probably will take more time as well.

[SomeSailor]

But this year on our trip from Friday Harbor to Edmonds we burned only 32 gallons of gas, it sure will be different with 2459, and probably will take more time as well.

I burn a bit more than that. Usually top off at Friday Harbor and it's about 55 gallons or so. As far as taking more time, I dunno. We run pretty consistently in the 28-30 MPH range and will top out at 36 or so. The 2859 handles the air in rough water a lot better too. :)

Here's one of my favorite 2859 photos:

http://www.iboatnw.com/gallery/d/142-1/20080217_Just_Relax_Air334.jpg

[Go Aweigh2452]

Hey Mike... here is one of my favorite photos... nah nah nah... Oh it was up in Desolation Sound... You know that area yet?
http://www.doug-cook.com/goaweighto/desolatdawg08/IMG_2937.jpg

[SomeSailor]

Neah... not yet. Ya got me there.

Both are very capable boats and like I said, real close cousins. (or is it Uncle and Nephew) ? :)

[Go Aweigh2452]

Neah... not yet. Ya got me there.



With your speed and starting location, you could make it in one day or two if you took some time... ya gotta go... nothing like it in the San Juans or Gulf Islands...

[SomeSailor]

With your speed and starting location, you could make it in one day or two if you took some time... ya gotta go... nothing like it in the San Juans or Gulf Islands...

Sounds like a great idea... but I've gotta have those days to take first. We're not all fully retired yet. :)

I'm still around the corner from that one.

[fishaman]

To my mind, 2859 has a number of advantages as compared to my 2452:
- more sleeping and storage space;
- more space around the engine, easier to maintain and repair;
- flat floor in the cockpit (also present in post 2001 2452);
- full size door in transom (also present in post 2001 2452);
- has a shower and larger freshwater tank for those Desolation Sound trips;
- factory bulkhead, good for fishing in cold weather;
- larger anchor locker, works better with windlass;
- arguably more comfortable and safer ride.

However, there are some disadvantages:
- less maneuverability of a 2859, I know at least two of them around with bowthrusters installed by frustrated owners (never saw a BT on a 2452);
- close to two times higher gas consumption (my normal one-day halibut trip from Edmonds will cost about $300 as compared to $150 now);
- cockpit floor is higher above the water, less convenient for fishing;
- trailerability of 2452 makes remote places (Desolation Sound again) much more accessible for those full time employed; trailering 2859 is possible, but requires permit, and definitely not for the faint of heart.

If we will go for a larger boat, it will be a 2859, but we have not made a decision yet.

[SomeSailor]

- less maneuverability of a 2859, I know at least two of them around with bowthrusters installed by frustrated owners (never saw a BT on a 2452);

That's a matter of seamanship. I single-hand mine and have never needed bow thrusters. I actually find the 2859 quite easy to maneuver. The big prop is very helpful in walking the boat over to the dock.


- cockpit floor is higher above the water, less convenient for fishing;

I don't get that one. I've never had a fish I couldn't reach. Matter of fact I think a 2859 has probably twice the fishing area back there than the 2452. I can (and have) had 3 adults fishing at once out of the cockpit.


- trailerability of 2452 makes remote places (Desolation Sound again) much more accessible for those full time employed; trailering 2859 is possible, but requires permit, and definitely not for the faint of heart.

They are trailerable (Bob has been trailering his for some 10 years now). I've towed mine and it's very predictable... but heavy. A 2452 would be easier though.

[Salmon Troller]

Not really thinking about trailering, but the option exists with either boat. I am pretty sure the 2859 would take all of a heavy 3/4T tow vehicle and probably a 1T, but what about the 2542? Will a 1/2T pull it without killing the truck?

I am planning a trip up to Dagmars next month, our friends (Tongue Tied) have their 2655 up there and we plan on a boat ride with them to see how the Dagmar thing works. When I know a date, I will give a shout and see who else will be on site that day.

The 2452 has my attention just because of its size and economy, but my guess is that the Admiral will see the mid-ship bunk in the 2859 and the decision made. Mike, why do you use the v-berth rather than the mid-ship bunk? it would seem the better of the two

[SomeSailor]

I am planning a trip up to Dagmars next month, our friends (Tongue Tied) have their 2655 up there and we plan on a boat ride with them to see how the Dagmar thing works. When I know a date, I will give a shout and see who else will be on site that day. Gimme a shout. If I'm around, you're welcome to drive mine if you wanna get a feel for the 2859.

We use the V-berth mainly for the convenience. It's the full width of the boat and very comfortable. Dane (or son) uses the aft berth, and when we took my mom up for a week on the boat, she got the aft, Dane slept on the mid-berth (table) and we had the V-Berth. The 2859 will sleep 6, but the table conversion puts you back into the same world as the 2452. It works, but it gets crowded when you're wanting to get up and have coffee or watch TV while everyone else is still not quite up yet.

[Go Aweigh2452]

Yes a 1/2 tone will tow the 2452. I pulled mine with a 1972 GMC with a 402ci Special Camper Edition.

I gave that truck to the vets when I bought my 2003 F 350 4WD... The GMC truck was old to begin with and I used a bumper hitch plus it was only 2WD. I got stuck once on the ramp and a F350 with his boat still attached pulled the GMC and the boat off the ramp as he pulled me going backwards... two days later, I bought my present F350... ;)

[fishaman]

I single-hand mine and have never needed bow thrusters.
...
I've never had a fish I couldn't reach.

Mike, no one is questioning your abilities:D.

However, when I make Google search on "2859 Bow Thruster", I get a ton of hits. There's even a completed project report on BOC for 2859 BT installation. So it probably does make sense for folks with average docking skills, I do not believe people are throwing out that kind of money for nothing.

The same goes for fishing, I personally find it easier to net the fish when I am about 1.5 feet closer to the water level in 2452, less negative leverage on the net, and better angle. Actually, one of my friends who is used to fishing from his 20' North River finds my 2452 sitting too high, so it's strictly the matter of personal preferences.

[Papa Charlie]

It may be that you find more hits on BT for 2859 simply because they are bigger boats and can be justified more than a smaller 24 foot boat. That does not necessarily mean that the 2859 are harder to handle.
I have gone crabbing with Mike once on his boat and found the boat to be easy to work from including handling crab pots and a mortor mixing tray that Mike used to dump the crab into. I don't remember the deck being 1.5 feet off the water but that doesn't mean anything. Mike does have a special feature which allows him to lower the deck closer to the water. The feature also adds a lot of stability to the boat. :-)
I know that both Mike and Doug use the heck out of their boats and both seem to enjoy them. Doug, by the fact that he is a man of liesure these days does use his more, but he only rubs it in a little.... too much. :-) Of course I am a little jealous.
Both seem like very nice boats. It really is just a matter of what fits your personal needs better, or maybe your Admirals, which I totally understand.

[Go Aweigh2452]

[QUOTE=Papa Charlie;66388 Doug, by the fact that he is a man of liesure these days does use his more, but he only rubs it in a little.... too much. :-) Of course I am a little jealous.
Both seem like very nice boats. It really is just a matter of what fits your personal needs better, or maybe your Admirals, which I totally understand.[/QUOTE]

Pat, I don't understand, if you live on a boat and have an awesome dink, I'd be hard pressed to not go out a few times a week in the evenings (after work) and drag a line or two...

Did I mention I'm going fishing this Friday and a day or two next week before we head to Yellowstone? yep, I'm teasing but could be teasing a lot more...

[Tedster]

Lol

[SomeSailor]

Did I mention I'm going fishing this Friday and a day or two next week before we head to Yellowstone? yep, I'm teasing but could be teasing a lot more...

Yeah... I wish it were me, but you've got a few more years on the calendar than I do as well. I still need to finish bankrolling my fishing days. :)

I think you'll find more bow thrusters on a 2859 just because they're big enough to install them. There's a perfect area up front that will accommodate them. I think it'd be fun to have one, but I'm a gadget guy. They're essentially the same boats... one just larger than the other. Pick the size that best suits your application and family.

[Papa Charlie]

Pat, I don't understand, if you live on a boat and have an awesome dink, I'd be hard pressed to not go out a few times a week in the evenings (after work) and drag a line or two...

Did I mention I'm going fishing this Friday and a day or two next week before we head to Yellowstone? yep, I'm teasing but could be teasing a lot more...

No I hadn't heard anything about that, do you fish?
Thats OK Doug, I am living vicariously through your exploits. You know I haven't gone fishing since we moved up here, been too busy with work, finding a home and taking care of just the daily chores to make an effort. Patti went out with the neighbors on their 45 for her first time Salmon fishing. She had a great time, spent most of the time driving the boat. The Pilothouse has now been renamed "Our Man Cave". Oh well, she loves boating, how can I go wrong.
But as a result of her outing she want to rig the boat for Salmon fishing for next season if not sooner. Sounds like it will be fun.
Hope you enjoy your outing and fill the boat with Salmon.