This about sums it all up...

[Go Aweigh2452]

The lady who wrote this letter is Pam Foster of Pamela Foster and Associates in Atlanta. She's been in business since 1980 doing interior design and home planning. She recently wrote a letter to a family member serving in Iraq ....... Read it!

WHAT'S ALL THE FUSS?

"Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001? Were people from all over the world, mostly Americans, not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from our nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania? Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a copy of the Koran was "desecrated" when an overworked American soldier kicked it or got it wet? Well, I don't.

I don't care at all.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere possession of which is a crime in Saudi Arabia.

I'll care when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi tells the world he is sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling, slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called "insurgents" in Iraq come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the American media stops pretending that their First Amendment liberties are somehow derived from international law instead of the United States Constitution's Bill of Rights.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a brave Marine roughing up an Iraqi terrorist to obtain information, know this: I don't care.

When I see a fuzzy photo of a pile of naked Iraqi prisoners who have been humiliated in what amounts to a college hazing incident, rest assured that I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank that I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and fed "special" food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being "mishandled," you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts that I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled "Koran" and other times "Quran." Well, Jimmy Crack Corn and ---- you guessed it, I could not have said this any better myself!

[kirkster5]

I would agree more with the above statements if even 1 of the terrorist who planned/financed/or executed the terrorist attacks of 9/11 were Iraqi.
If we were in Saudi Arabia where 17 of the 19 terrorist were from and all of the financing and planning came from. Remember Osama is Saudi in fact he is/"was" Saudi Royality. I'd agree more If we had not placed Sadam in power to begin with when it serverd our goals to fight Iran and then set him up by tacitly agreeing not to respond to the planned Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in 1990 only to use this as our reason to invade in gulf war 1. I'd agree to it more if the Weapons of mass destruction and huge stockpiles of weaponry were found.
That being said He was a bad dude and had to go. The world is better off without this guy in power. I also think that it no longer matters why we are there, we are, and we must prevail. Our men and Women in harms way deserve our full suport and the World deserves to see the face of humanity, decency, and truth that only the USA display. Therefore we must as a citizen of the greatest nation the world has ever known insist that only the very best conduct is displayed by or Militaty and Political leaders.

Some of the statements made in the previous post could very easily be said of our Christian brothers who carried out unspeakable acts in the name of Christianity(see also Adolph Hitler/Slobadan Milosivich/Torkamata etc....U.S. government policy on "Savage Indigenous Peoples".

We NEED to care about our conduct. We MUST care about our conduct. Does it suck that in order to be better than those that aim to hurt us that we MUST take the high ground so we can look at ourselves in the mirror and say "our goals are just and aims are moral". This will at times lead to pain and loss that would not have occured if we lived in and supported a brutal regiem with an iron fist and no moral compass. It worked great for the Soviet Union and is working well so far for China. But I think History has showed what happens to these types of oppresive forms of government. Eventually the people rise up and say enough is enough we want freedom.

Freedom is hard. Doing the right thing requires great restraint. The patience to demonstrate to the World the correctness of Freedom with moral actions, which are in line with our values and not fear and brutality, is our burden. We will be judged by how we practice to others what we preach. Do onto others.............

[Roel Jansen]

to see the face of humanity, decency, and truth that only the USA display. Therefore we must as a citizen of the greatest nation the world has ever known

What makes you think you are? and I never knew we are Huns! :D


It's rather amusing why so many Americans feel the need to make this kind of statements so often. Why? to me it looks like there is a kind of collective hidden feeling of minority because you think every one is against you and you don't know why as you are the only good guys. Otherwise I find it difficult to explain. But by making this kind of unnecessary insulting statements over and over again, I think you really don't make a lot of friends.

In an office a long time ago I read on a sign: You don't built a reputation by saying what you are but by showing it.
liked it very much.

Do you ever hear us Europeans state that we are the only honest and decent part of the world?
And do you know why not? Simply because it's far from true!

Stop this behavior and every body in the whole world will call you what you really are, very nice people living in a very nice country! ;)

And otherwise try to live with Roosevelt's words:

They don't need to like us as long they respect us! :D

BTW except for this I totally agree with what you wrote.

[kirkster5]

Good point.

It is a tough enviornment over here to get a contrary view listened to without people tuning you out. In an effort to remind people in the good ol' USA that torture and disrespect of others cultures and beliefs is something to care about I was attempting to show patriatism while pointing out the error of the "I dont care" post that started this string.

No offense intended. It is a very politically charged enviornment on this side of the pond and to have an opposing view heard sometimes you need to apeal to the patriotic side of a person before you can remind them that Humanity and Freedom are our core values even if they are not always on display.

Again no offense intended

[SomeSailor]

It's a tough road no matter which stand you take.

The way I see if first and foremost is WE were attacked on 9/11. The good old United States of America.

Its like if you sneak up on me while I'm sleeping and punch me square in the nose. Don't be too offended if I come up swinging.

The world has used the US and it's economy and military for so many years for their own purposes... it's as though now they somehow have say in our use of it.

We didn't just fly out to Iraq and start a war... we're fighting for our lives out there... and we'll be fighting for them here soon if American's don't wake up and get behind those we've chosen as our military leaders.

[bradvo]

There is nothing at all in Dougs post that offends me, I agree with the UN-diplomatic way it was written. Right to the point, concise and direct- You know what it says. It may not speak for all of us but it does for me.
Brad

[Roel Jansen]

What does it solve? Over and over again this kind of letters pop up on the Internet. A woman who compares a pile of naked humiliated people with a college joke frightens me the same way as the terrorists do. I wonder who really write this letters. But the goal is obvious. People always try to justify
what we do or have done. I've seen Berlin relatively short after world war II. I have seen street with the ruins of houses in which families had lived.
I have seen cinema's that were bombed and burnt out, but you still could see which movie was played that night. And we liked it very much because we hated the guts out of the Germans. Did we really care about the way the Russians treated the Germans? Of course not as we knew what the Germans had done to the Russian people estimate 20 million were executed, hung, tortured or died when their villages were put on fire. And this wasn't only done by the Waffen SS also the Wehrmacht soldiers took part of it.
Recent history in the Balkan has showed again what a thin layer of civilization we as humans really have. In a war we have to realize and accept that also innocent people got killed. A soldier in combat fight for his life and it's him or the other. But after the defeat of the enemy we have to treat the prisoners of war according to the rules we as civilized people made and believe in. Violations in every war occur and can't be prevented but shouldn't be more or less praised in what way so ever.
Chase terrorists, kill them in combat but when caught alive let the world see, the way how they will be punished for their crimes in a civilized society.

[bradvo]

Well let me see, be stacked naked on top of another comrade or lose my head. Think I will take the pile of naked comrades myself.

The point is there was some knuckle headed national Guard that decided to have some fun ( to them) it was discovered and they are now having to do time over this- TOO much in my opinion.

Guess we could just start chopping heads off. But then maybe to many people would think we were mean and cruel- Bullies .

yes letters like this keep popping up, some I like some I don't.
Also have some letters pop up about protecting are own borders, those I like more.
Brad

[SomeSailor]

The incident at Abu Graibe was an embarrassment to the Army, and the National Guard. That overspilled into the US reputation, but that will not change the way we fight wars.

I wish it had not happened yes, but believe me... it's not the worst of whats gone on over there. It's a war. In wars, atrocities happen and they make great news bytes when they do. This one happened to have a sexual sadism angle that made it all the better for the talking heads in the news corps.

[Numbknots]

I was just about to post this same message that Doug posted, "this time" I thought first to read through, search and re-think first?

Joel, While I agree with most that you said, and that of what "kirkster5" who ever you are? My name is Tim and you and anyone else is free to call me at 360.601.5225 to debate any of my "opinions". I think the post "I don't care was precisely accurate!

I would encourage all of us to remember to be slow to "judge" the people as a whole in any action that has caused harm to anyone else. The Moral compass that I use (standard of Truth) has stood the test of time (a long time) It is the good ol BIBLE----in its complete form and for those of you that disagree, I would suggest that you read it "all the way through" and you will see that the wars that were fought (many now known as the crusades) where not "Christian wars" they were "religious wars" and there is a big, big difference. The Christ of the new testiment Bible is "The God of Love" and it is impossible to believe that, teach that and live that without understanding the very purpose for "why he came". I try not to judge those that don't understand that, but in all that I do, "show it to be so" by my actions as a "person" Trust me that doesn't happen by strapping a plane to my body, or a grenade and blowing up innocent people.

I personally don't have any problem with anyone of another religion being in this country or even in my home. But you won't sway me to change because "yours is better", I would ask anyone that thinks that thinks that there is a better way, other god, or no god to show me that over thousands of years that "they" or their country are more prosperous, healthy and giving then the Christian Nation the US of A!

I don't see people crowding into row boats on either the pacific or the atlantic coastlines to get out of here!!!

Merry Christmas

Tim

[Go Aweigh2452]

I think this issue has run its course and may be time to be put to bed.

John Stewart Mill: War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

Ernest Hemmingway: Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war.

Everyone have a great week!!! Keep safe and be productive...

[bradvo]

Amen, My week is over on Monday. So looking forward to some R and R and a couple boat projects starting Tuesday. Hopefully tackle that holding tank plumbing once and for all.
Brad

[Numbknots]

Doug,

Amen, amen! I have both those quotes saved already and refer to the often.

Brad, I hope to have a final decision from my prospective buyer on the 'other' house tomorrow. I may just give you a call and see about visiting ya on the Navigator if you are going to be around. I did get the bottom cleaned and the zincs checked last week, but this real estate "crap" has me about stressed out so if it is indeed over I will likely come up to my boat for some R and R.

Tim

[bradvo]

Hopefully I will be around, The furnace installer has to come down Tuesday and reverse a couple things . I thought I would wait for him before I crack open the holding tank plumbing :shock:
Brad